International Brotherhood of Men

In this thread I wanna take an open, respectful, honest and sincere look at Islam.

I don't wanna go over all the things that i agree with. But to name a few, I think it's great to try and constrain the whoredom of women, the gayness of our whole society, put women back in their place, destroy simps, reinstate patriarchy etc.

There are a few things which I, and maybe other westerners too, have questions/concerns about. I will quickly go over them, and maybe my brothers SumZero or DarthAurelius could enlighten me.

I'll just jump straight to the biggest issues I may have with it.

1. Music
I'm kind of addicted to music, and as I understand it music is haram if it's not to praise Allah. I also spent many years to play piano, so, imagining a life without music is pretty difficult for me. Taliban/Islamic state destroyed many instruments.

2. Porn
Envisioning a life without any porn is hard for me. I also think, how is it when you get older? At some point your woman gets older too. And then you can't watch any porn? That is hard to imagine for me.

3. Circumcision
As I understand it, it is not mandatory, but social pressure/expectations could be an issue. I'm not really a fan of cutting part of my penis off or part of my son's penis when I have one.

Hopefully my muslim brothers can shine a light on these things and enlighten me. I want to know what is expected, honestly, sincerely, my brothers. And if Allah wants/does not want those things, I would like to understand why.

Vincent wrote: 16 Jun 2025, 23:20 In this thread I wanna take an open, respectful, honest and sincere look at Islam.

I don't wanna go over all the things that i agree with. But to name a few, I think it's great to try and constrain the whoredom of women, the gayness of our whole society, put women back in their place, destroy simps, reinstate patriarchy etc.

There are a few things which I, and maybe other westerners too, have questions/concerns about. I will quickly go over them, and maybe my brothers SumZero or DarthAurelius could enlighten me.

I'll just jump straight to the biggest issues I may have with it.

1. Music
I'm kind of addicted to music, and as I understand it music is haram if it's not to praise Allah. I also spent many years to play piano, so, imagining a life without music is pretty difficult for me. Taliban/Islamic state destroyed many instruments.

2. Porn
Envisioning a life without any porn is hard for me. I also think, how is it when you get older? At some point your woman gets older too. And then you can't watch any porn? That is hard to imagine for me.

3. Circumcision
As I understand it, it is not mandatory, but social pressure/expectations could be an issue. I'm not really a fan of cutting part of my penis off or part of my son's penis when I have one.

Hopefully my muslim brothers can shine a light on these things and enlighten me. I want to know what is expected, honestly, sincerely, my brothers. And if Allah wants/does not want those things, I would like to understand why.

@Sumzero

See my response in your previous thread regarding music and the application of Islamic teaching to it.

Also, while I consider my knowledge of Islam to be extremely rudimentary, I do know enough to have assimilated the vital point that righteousness is attained through acts of personal sacrifice and not so much through the adherence to the more minor admonitions and proscriptions of the Quran.

I recommend that you consult with the Sergeant Major and likewise begin reading the Quran, the Hadiths and the Biography of the Prophet Mohammed, Peace be upon Him, as those texts serve as a the primary corpus of theological instruction for any pious Muslim.

Finally, I commend you for your sincerity of conviction and would add that while conversion to Islam is never compulsory nor required for advancement within our movement, it is encouraged as we believe that both the Salafist and Wahabist interpretations are facilitative of the ideological objectives of this revolutionary movement and most consistent with the philosophy of the Blackpill. Inshallah.

Darth_aurelius wrote: 16 Jun 2025, 23:30 Finally, I commend you for your sincerity of conviction and would add that while conversion to Islam is never compulsory nor required for advancement within our movement, it is encouraged

I forgot to mention another thing. As someone deeply embedded in another culture, a switch to Islam seems like a huge change to me. How do you deal with that, personally, if all your family, relatives, friends, coworkers etc. are all of a different cultural, different historical and different religious background?
Did you already have muslims in your family (dad or mom or someone)? Are you the first muslim in your family?

Vincent wrote: 16 Jun 2025, 23:38

Darth_aurelius wrote: 16 Jun 2025, 23:30 Finally, I commend you for your sincerity of conviction and would add that while conversion to Islam is never compulsory nor required for advancement within our movement, it is encouraged

I forgot to mention another thing. As someone deeply embedded in another culture, a switch to Islam seems like a huge change to me. How do you deal with that, personally, if all your family, relatives, friends, coworkers etc. are all of a different cultural, different historical and different religious background?
Did you already have muslims in your family (dad or mom or someone)? Are you the first muslim in your family?

I am not going to elaborate on any personal details which might be subsequently used by our innumerable enemies who I know spend time monitoring these forums though I am very willing to expound on my own personal journey to Islam in the more secure virtual confines of element and would implore you to rejoin us there anyways. Additionally, like most of my comrades in the IPF, I have a very small social circle and am not thoroughly invested in the community nor have I assimilated the degenerate culture of the west despite having been exposed to it my entire life so the disconnect, as it were, was of marginal personal impact for me.

Darth_aurelius wrote: 17 Jun 2025, 10:43 I am not going to elaborate on any personal details which might be subsequently used by our innumerable enemies who I know spend time monitoring these forums

I forgot about that. Of course comrade, don't give fodder to our enemies.

Vincent wrote: 17 Jun 2025, 12:12

Darth_aurelius wrote: 17 Jun 2025, 10:43 I am not going to elaborate on any personal details which might be subsequently used by our innumerable enemies who I know spend time monitoring these forums

I forgot about that. Of course comrade, don't give fodder to our enemies.

You know that the choice between activity on element and posting on these forums is a false dichotomy. They need not be mutually exclusive as you can take my own personal example as illustrative of this concept since I am both very active in the higher echelon meeting rooms of element as well as the most prolific poster here on these forums.

Additionally, I am going to be recommending you and putting your name forward to the headquarters staff for promotion to the more elite ranks of the ILM based on your recently increased post activity as well as your seemingly genuine professions of aspiring to greater Islamic piety. Typically we require a 100 post count minimum as a prerequisite to admittance into the ILM so we will be monitoring your activity here comrade in the hope that you will satisfy those reasonable requirements.

Hello comrade, I will adress your greivences with islam

Before I begin, let me first lay out the context of sin in Islam.
In Islamic belief, every sin carries weight, some are light, like pebbles, while others are heavy, like boulders. When a person dies, Allah judges them by placing their deeds on a scale: good deeds on one side, bad deeds on the other.
For instance, listening to music is often considered a minor sin comparable to a small pebble on the scale. In contrast, major sins such as murder or adultery are far weightier, perhaps equivalent to the weight of a car.

However, Islam also teaches that good deeds carry weight and can offset sins. If someone sins but sincerely repents and then performs a righteous act such as giving to the poor or participating in the holy war of jihad those deeds are placed on the other side of the scale.

Giving charity might weigh like a solid, medium-sized stone, while jihad would be as weighty as an elephant (although some scholars say jihad will grant any person into jahnna regardless what sins they have comitted in their life, as this is the ultimate sacrifice as proof of true belief.) The heavier your good deeds, the more likely your scale tips in your favor on the Day of Judgment.


The Qur'an says:
“If you avoid the major sins which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance [into Paradise].”
— Surah An-Nisa (4:31)

This is balance in judgment.
Ultimately, Allah judges with absolute justice and mercy. Sincere repentance can wipe out even some major sins, and arrogance or pride can make small sins dangerous. The Prophet said:
“Beware of minor sins, for they add up until they destroy a person.”
— Musnad Ahmad

So in Islam, yes not all sins are judged equally, but all sins matter in the moral accounting of a soul.


now to adress all of your points individually:
as someone who has played an instrument my entire life and attented a music conservatory before ultimately leaving, I of all people can tell you that music is powerful, but I also understand why it is considered a minor sin

I belive music has the power to influence emotions, and can sway you to sin, for example if you listen to modern american rap and ghetto music, it is full of slurs, profanity, sex, violence, and degenerate culture. On the other hand if you listen to an instrumental classical music or a nasheed prayer, these are obviously permissable and sometimes even considered sunnah

I belive it is not of mere coincidence that a majority of musicians are liberal and progressive,
Research and commentary consistently find that artists—especially musicians—tend to be more liberal-leaning than the general population
- theimaginativeconservative.org

The culture of music, especially pop, folk, alternative, and hip-hop, often embraces progressive themes and messages.
If you see it, the belief that Satan (or Lucifer) was a celestial musician before his fall is also not a coincidence, and it is common to see depictions of satan playing a violin or other assortment of stringed instruments



now it does not mean that you support satan if you listen to music, and just by joining the IPF and fighting or campaigning for islam in the west, you have likely already offset the minor sin of music altogether, but just be ware of the power of music, and that it can impact you both positively or negatively.

pornography is also considered a minor sin, and your status as incel or as a disenfranchized man has likely justified, within reason, that this is of course something that manifests itself through a state of desperation we all know very well.
Remember that Allah judges us with ultimate justice and always with common sense. Yes porn is evil. and it's existence is damaging to any society, but if you account for the situation that modern men have found themselves in, and the society that we have inherited, would you say it is unreasnoble within these conditions to watch porn? It's like smoking, yes it's unhealthy, but it won't kill you overnight. Try to limit your intake

it would be like putting a fish in a glass of water, and then spreading dirt above the water. If I then told the fish that it's prohibited for it to breathe in dirty water because it is harmful to the fish, would that not be an unreasnable demand?

finally yes it's sunnah to circumsize, but it's not mandatory, indeed there may be pressure to do it from others in a muslim community when a child is born, but if you decide not to do it, as a father it is your choice, and everyone must respect this.

In western culture we are burdened by pressure to sin every single day constantly, if you will not be strong enough to deny this mild pressure upon your own child then you will not be able to deny the pressure of sin.
Either way there will always be pressure, as this is a part of life, but personally I would choose the pressures of a godly muslim community one hundred million times over the daily pressures of living in modern western civilisation

Sumzero wrote: 17 Jun 2025, 13:41 Hello comrade, I will adress your greivences with islam

Thank you, very insightful. "Grievances" is not the right word, as it implies complaints, which I’m not making. I had questions/concerns about those things, not grievances.

About the musical part. To play devil's advocate. Fundamentalists such as ISIS & the taliban destroy musical instruments. And as I understand music that is not religious is a sin. Darth Aurelius mentioned that he is "a lover of classical compositions who could not live without the works of Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Mahler, Schubert, Chopin".

Had people of the past carried the teachings of Islam to their logical conclusion, would that not imply that the musical masterpieces our esteemed comrade Darth Aurelius could not live without would never have been made in the first place?

Vincent wrote: 17 Jun 2025, 17:37

Sumzero wrote: 17 Jun 2025, 13:41 Hello comrade, I will adress your greivences with islam

Thank you, very insightful. "Grievances" is not the right word, as it implies complaints, which I’m not making. I had questions/concerns about those things, not grievances.

About the musical part. To play devil's advocate. Fundamentalists such as ISIS & the taliban destroy musical instruments. And as I understand music that is not religious is a sin. Darth Aurelius mentioned that he is "a lover of classical compositions who could not live without the works of Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Mahler, Schubert, Chopin".

Had people of the past carried the teachings of Islam to their logical conclusion, would that not imply that the musical masterpieces our esteemed comrade Darth Aurelius could not live without would never have been made in the first place?

Don't (mis)construe me as a some sort of paragon of Islamic virtue ad I am certainly not nor have I ever made any such pretenses here or elsewhere. I have always deferred to SGM Sumzero's greater mastery and knowledge of the teachings of the Holy Quran and while my fanaticism and zealous love for Salafi and Wahabi Islam is as righteous as it is uncompromising, I have a much to learn about the faith which I am so inspired by. To put this in to context for you, I am rather akin to a Jedi Padawan learner while Sumzero is more like a highly experienced Jedi Knight in our respective degrees of knowledge.

Vincent wrote: 17 Jun 2025, 17:37

Sumzero wrote: 17 Jun 2025, 13:41 Hello comrade, I will adress your greivences with islam

Thank you, very insightful. "Grievances" is not the right word, as it implies complaints, which I’m not making. I had questions/concerns about those things, not grievances.

About the musical part. To play devil's advocate. Fundamentalists such as ISIS & the taliban destroy musical instruments. And as I understand music that is not religious is a sin. Darth Aurelius mentioned that he is "a lover of classical compositions who could not live without the works of Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Mahler, Schubert, Chopin".

Had people of the past carried the teachings of Islam to their logical conclusion, would that not imply that the musical masterpieces our esteemed comrade Darth Aurelius could not live without would never have been made in the first place?

I don't usually like answering "what if" questions as doing so will rely on 100% speculation or a crystal ball. Honestly If classical music really would never have been invented, my opinion is that this would be a small sacrifice in order to acheive male supremecy, true patriarchy and incel liberation - or at least the cultural death of feminism

on a side note id like to ask you what you think would be a reasonable conclusion to the iran isreal conflict and what would you like to see as a solution

another question is if you think israel's bombing of iran's nuclear facilities was justified

Sumzero wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 11:21 on a side note id like to ask you what you think would be a reasonable conclusion to the iran isreal conflict and what would you like to see as a solution

I don't know. I don't really care that much as you do. I have no power, so I don't wanna waste any of my energy thinking of solutions which I can't implement anyway.
If I were in power I would take all of women's rights away and make simps disappear from Minecraft, first of all. But it's useless to think about such things.

Iran's birthrate has also fallen below replacement rate. All birthrates are falling rapidly, including in muslim countries, so I don't think your argument is true that Islam solves the fertility rate problem, at least not the Islam that is preached in most muslim countries.

Israel is one of USA's proxies so for that reason, I dislike them. I am just not as obsessed with them as the captain or you. I hate the whole anglosphere and all their proxies equally. And I hate feminism and simps most of all.

The alternatives Russia and China are only marginally better though. They also have many elements that I dislike. Essentially you become disposable garbage of their ruling classes. Don't fool yourself. If Putin decides to use you, then you will be used and thrown at the frontline. Russia is full of christcucks, so what would you be fighting for?

Tbh I don't know what you expect from me. I am just doing military analysis. If Israel is winning, then Israel is winning. If Iran is winning, then Iran is winning. I just look at what is happening. And yeah Israel has been doing a lot of winning recently. Almost all of Iran's proxies are either severely weakened (Hezbollah, Hamas) or destroyed (Assad) now. Currently, Israel is stronger than ever before.

Sumzero wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 11:21 another question is if you think israel's bombing of iran's nuclear facilities was justified

Again, I don't really care. I just look at things from a military & strategic perspective.
Think of it like discussing a movie.
Though I do find it funny that the US intelligence themselves say that Iran was not developing any nuclear weapons and Trump said he didn't care. That is pretty funny. Seems like USA wants the war either way.
I think a nuclear bomb is the only thing that can really protect you against any major power. North Korea is proof of it. They are poor as dirt, their military is starved as fuck, Kim ate all the food, yet nobody attacks them since they have nukes.

And what is your viewpoint?

Sumzero wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 11:21 I don't usually like answering "what if" questions as doing so will rely on 100% speculation or a crystal ball. Honestly If classical music really would never have been invented, my opinion is that this would be a small sacrifice in order to acheive male supremecy, true patriarchy and incel liberation - or at least the cultural death of feminism

Captain said he couldn't live without those works, so that sounded like it would be a big price to pay for him.

Vincent wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 12:05

Sumzero wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 11:21 on a side note id like to ask you what you think would be a reasonable conclusion to the iran isreal conflict and what would you like to see as a solution

I don't know. I don't really care that much as you do. I have no power, so I don't wanna waste any of my energy thinking of solutions which I can't implement anyway.
If I were in power I would take all of women's rights away and hang the simps in Minecraft, first of all. But it's useless to think about such things.

Iran's birthrate has also fallen below replacement rate. All birthrates are falling rapidly, including in muslim countries, so I don't think your argument is true that Islam solves the fertility rate problem, at least not the Islam that is preached in most muslim countries.

Israel is one of USA's proxies so for that reason, I dislike them. I am just not as obsessed with them as the captain or you. I hate the whole anglosphere and all their proxies equally. And I hate feminism and simps most of all.

The alternatives Russia and China are only marginally better though. They also have many elements that I dislike. Essentially you become disposable garbage of their ruling classes. Don't fool yourself. If Putin decides to use you, then you will be used and thrown at the frontline. Russia is full of christcucks, so what would you be fighting for?

Tbh I don't know what you expect from me. I am just doing military analysis. If Israel is winning, then Israel is winning. If Iran is winning, then Iran is winning. I just look at what is happening. And yeah Israel has been doing a lot of winning recently. Almost all of Iran's proxies are either severely weakened (Hezbollah, Hamas) or destroyed (Assad) now. Currently, Israel is stronger than ever before.

Sumzero wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 11:21 another question is if you think israel's bombing of iran's nuclear facilities was justified

Again, I don't really care. I just look at things from a military & strategic perspective.
Think of it like discussing a movie.
Though I do find it funny that the US intelligence themselves say that Iran was not developing any nuclear weapons and Trump said he didn't care. That is pretty funny. Seems like USA wants the war either way.
I think a nuclear bomb is the only thing that can really protect you against any major power. North Korea is proof of it. They are poor as dirt, their military is starved as fuck, Kim ate all the food, yet nobody attacks them since they have nukes.

And what is your viewpoint?

Thank you for the honest answer comrade.
Indeed my viewpoint is the same as it has always been -
That worldwide islam supremecy is enacted under any necessary circumstances
inshallah

(I am not promoting violence for any fbi agents that may be reading this)

Vincent wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 12:08

Sumzero wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 11:21 I don't usually like answering "what if" questions as doing so will rely on 100% speculation or a crystal ball. Honestly If classical music really would never have been invented, my opinion is that this would be a small sacrifice in order to acheive male supremecy, true patriarchy and incel liberation - or at least the cultural death of feminism

Captain said he couldn't live without those works, so that sounded like it would be a big price to pay for him.

I will refrain from speaking on his behalf

Vincent wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 12:08

Sumzero wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 11:21 I don't usually like answering "what if" questions as doing so will rely on 100% speculation or a crystal ball. Honestly If classical music really would never have been invented, my opinion is that this would be a small sacrifice in order to acheive male supremecy, true patriarchy and incel liberation - or at least the cultural death of feminism

Captain said he couldn't live without those works, so that sounded like it would be a big price to pay for him.

Firstly, check your PM's please. I tagged you on another thread for purposes of putting you on notice that I sent you an important private message this morning.

Secondly, I made the point last night when talking to my staff during our briefing that had the historical trajectory of civilization been altered in such a way so that its development was modulated by Islamic thought and culture, there would certainly be some regrettable losses but the cumulative benefits would far exceed their impact.

I would submit to you that had Islam been regnant in the 15th and 16th centuries and supplanted Christendom as the dominant monotheism in Europe, the so-called Enlightenment would have have probably still happened but it would have been tempered by a more conservative and reactionary intellectual ethos and cultural zeitgeist. This would have restrained the liberal philosophical tendencies of men like Voltaire and Rousseau who gave birth to the modern tradition of progressive thought and would have inculcated in the minds of such men the supremacy of the law of Sharia, the inferiority of women and the need for an uncompromising patriarchal society to ensure and safeguard the unfettered overlordship of pious Muslim men.

When you reconcile those inescapable conclusions with the possibility of the loss of classical music, it seems to me to be acceptable and indeed, preferable.

Darth_aurelius wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 13:08 Secondly, I made the point last night when talking to my staff during our briefing that had the historical trajectory of civilization been altered in such a way so that its development was modulated by Islamic thought and culture, there would certainly be some regrettable losses but the cumulative benefits would far exceed their impact.

@Darth_aurelius @Sumzero
Why did Allah create a world in which (classical) music could be created and be enjoyed so much that comrade Aurelius can not live without it, yet make it a sin to listen to it?
I understood the reasons you layed out before zerosum, but then why did allah create a world in which this sin can exist and more than that be so enjoyable to Captain?

Vincent wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 16:26

Darth_aurelius wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 13:08 Secondly, I made the point last night when talking to my staff during our briefing that had the historical trajectory of civilization been altered in such a way so that its development was modulated by Islamic thought and culture, there would certainly be some regrettable losses but the cumulative benefits would far exceed their impact.

@Darth_aurelius @Sumzero
Why did Allah create a world in which (classical) music could be created and be enjoyed so much that comrade Aurelius can not live without it, yet make it a sin to listen to it?
I understood the reasons you layed out before zerosum, but then why did allah create a world in which this sin can exist and more than that be so enjoyable to Captain?

God works in mysterious ways, we are just ants. We will never understand everything, but this is my theory:
God gave us free will and allowed suffering and evil to exist in the word in order to test the power of our faith, so that we may prove ourselves worthy of entrance into janna

indeed sinning feels good, whoring, eating massive amounts of chocolate, gambling, drinking alcohol constantly, sniffing cocaine.
yet just because it is pleasure does not mean it will lead to happiness,
if Allah says don't do it; don't do it.
Sometimes you will not understand why, and that is ok
it is simple, and everyone will sin in life but even after that, Allah is merciful in his judgement:

as he said
“If you avoid the major sins which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance [into Paradise].”

Sumzero wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 17:00 as he said
“If you avoid the major sins which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance [into Paradise].”

What are those major sins? A lot of muslim countries seem to disagree on those, since they often interpret things differently.

Vincent wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 16:26

Darth_aurelius wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 13:08 Secondly, I made the point last night when talking to my staff during our briefing that had the historical trajectory of civilization been altered in such a way so that its development was modulated by Islamic thought and culture, there would certainly be some regrettable losses but the cumulative benefits would far exceed their impact.

@Darth_aurelius @Sumzero
Why did Allah create a world in which (classical) music could be created and be enjoyed so much that comrade Aurelius can not live without it, yet make it a sin to listen to it?
I understood the reasons you layed out before zerosum, but then why did allah create a world in which this sin can exist and more than that be so enjoyable to Captain?

Read your PM's. I am ordering you to do so now since you disregarded my previous instructions.

Secondly, I already provided a sufficient answer to your philosophical hypothetical by explaining that had the Enlightenment been influenced by Islamic thought, it may not have resulted in the same sort of cultural artifacts which include classical compositions for piano but it would have certainly prevented the development of liberal and progressive theories that have eventuated in this current era of depravity, degeneracy and desperation for all men of honor.

Let me put it to you this way; if I were given the choice between living in two hypothetical worlds, the first would be the one we currently inhabit, replete with rampant whoring, unrestrained sexual licentiousness, degenerate exploits by all manner of normie scum but also inclusive of classical music, or an alternative world resembling the culture of contemporary Afghanistan but with greater technological advancement, I would choose the latter every time.

Darth_aurelius wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 17:37 Read your PM's. I am ordering you to do so now since you disregarded my previous instructions.

I read it. There were no instructions? I didn't see any instructions.

Darth_aurelius wrote: 21 Jun 2025, 17:37 Secondly, I already provided a sufficient answer to your philosophical hypothetical by explaining that had the Enlightenment been influenced by Islamic thought, it may not have resulted in the same sort of cultural artifacts which include classical compositions for piano but it would have certainly prevented the development of liberal and progressive theories that have eventuated in this current era of depravity, degeneracy and desperation for all men of honor.

Let me put it to you this way; if I were given the choice between living in two hypothetical worlds, the first would be the one we currently inhabit, replete with rampant whoring, unrestrained sexual licentiousness, degenerate exploits by all manner of normie scum but also inclusive of classical music, or an alternative world resembling the culture of contemporary Afghanistan but with greater technological advancement, I would choose the latter every time.

Yeah I understand that and I'd probably choose the same. I just don't understand why Allah would want to tempt you like this with things that are supposedly sinful, yet which you delight in.